Аквариум - Форум аквариумистов Aquaforum.kiev.ua

Аквариум - Форум аквариумистов Aquaforum.kiev.ua (http://www.aquaforum.kiev.ua/forum_restored/index.php)

- Рыбы (http://www.aquaforum.kiev.ua/forum_restored/forumdisplay.php?f=10)

- - Spawning of SAE (http://www.aquaforum.kiev.ua/forum_restored/showthread.php?t=2952)

I’d like to thank Liisa Sarakontu for her help! I appreciate it very much!

In this extract I’ll let you know our correspondence and the letter of Doug Underwood who bred the SAE in 1996.
The correspondence was corrected for better perception and refraining avoidance of repetition.

Good afternoon Liisa!
Thank you very much for your answer and agreement to help!
First of all, I'd like to describe the current situation:
5 SAE, ~1.5-2 years old, 2 female/3 male,~12cm (4.7 inches) every. One of the female has hard-roe, she is aprx.- 2.5 cm (~0.8 inch) in the diameter.

Цитата:

Their age and size is suitable for breeding.

Was bought the tank 160L (35.55 gals) for them.(heater, filter with
biofiltration are present). The tank made from plexiglas. The total light
power, for this moment, 160Watt.

Цитата:

SAEs have bred is such a small tank at least once, but they should be
housed in a much bigger aquarium. They are active and fast swimmers and do
best in a tank which is at least 10 times as long as the adult length of
SAEs. I have kept SAEs too in a 160 L tank, but I wouldn't dream of
breeding them there. Nowadays all my SAEs live in a 300 L tank.

Also, I have vegetation food for them - soy (bean) tablets, vitaminous
tablets, spinach (frozen), dandelion's leaves (fresh).
The meat's diet consists of more then 10 types of foods (if necessary)

Цитата:

SAEs eat about everything, so this sounds ok.

I'd like to avoid breeding stimulation with injection of gonadotropin. It
could be leaved for the end, if natural stimulators won't work. (especially,
the doses calculation is hard for me, I haven't had any practice in it for
this moment). (I've been breeding cichlids, catfishes.)

Цитата:

I have never heard hormone injections used with SAEs, but it should work
too. Anyway, it has been proven that they can be bred without them so it
is good that you want to try

I took this idea from the technology of LABEO breeding (Labeo frenatus and
bicolor). They are in the same group. That's was the reason I thought about
it.

Цитата:

Actually those two fish are not Labeos but members of genus
Epalzeorhynchus. But yes, they are closely related to SAEs and I've heard
too that they can be bred with hormones.

Please, if it is possible - send the information about SAE's breeding and
comment/remark to my current situation.

Цитата:

SAEs seem to breed after a big change in something - and about any chance
seems to do.

The first person who bred them and wrote about it to the net simulated
rain and dry seasons, and when all the other fish he had bred after that,
SAEs bred too and he managed to raise some fry to adulthood. This raport
might be found somewhere from the net still today, perhaps from the
archives of Aquatic Plants List. Anyway, first was dry season with very
little filtration, very little feeding, no water changes, warm water. This
lasted something like 2 weeks. Then simulated rain with very, very soft
water, LOTS of water current, lots of feeding, lots of water changes,
temperature went down a little. Tank size at least 300 L, if I remember
correctly.

Another breeding which resulted in eggs (but no fry) happened when a
family was away during winter and all house heating had gone down. When
they got back home, tank temperature was about 18 C. They rather quickly
heated the tank back to normal (about 24 C) and SAEs bred. I don't know
the tank size in this case, but it was a normal community tank, pH about
7, soft (or even very soft) water.

And I know 2 or perhaps 3 cases when SAEs have bred immeadiately after
they have been moved to a brand new tank with fresh water and perhaps no
other fish. In these cases they have most often been rather young (well
under 2 years) and smallish (under 10 cm) fish.

Would it be possible I to use our correspondence (completely or partly), in
case I'll need to discuss smthg with my colleagues on UkrForum?

Цитата:

Sure

Далі буде......

The e-letter of Doug Underwood:

Hi All,
I have tried to send this info a couple of times over the past week. Apparently our network is eating outgoing
email. If this ends up as a multiple post, I apoligize for the waste of band-width.
Anyway. Over the past 9 months, I have had 6 spawnings of SAEs. Two unexpected, and four planned. The mortality rate of the eggs/babies has been extremely high. I presently have approx. 50 sub-adult/babies that have survived. I'm hoping these will give me a viable stock with which to breed.
Since I'm not sure this will get through our great hunk of wires and boards on the hill, I'll make it brief and
just touch on the highlights.

Some of the basics.

Tanks:
Varity of sizes. 10 to 90 US gal
Water: Ph 6.5 to 7.6
dH soft to moderately hard/hard
kH 3.5 to 5.5 per Tetra Kit
Moderate to Heavy planting
most with some type of peat filtering
substrate: vermiculate/gravel covered by sand
Fish:
Purchased a babies ( < 1 inch) 8 initial, 7 true
SAEs, 1 false. Lost two as jumpers, when I turned my back with the top open. They were purchased for algea control, and were teamed up with 4 Farws. and 4 dwarf clown Plecos. They do a super job.

IMO some of the necessaries. CLEAN, fresh water. I have had no success using aged established tanks. I routinly do a 10% water change every 2 to 3 days. I used a system presented to me by Shane Linder to create a Spring Flood/Rainy Season. This results in an almost 95% water change during the flooding part. This coupled with an abundence of food, live and frozen, triggered the spawning.
Next. A good, not necessarily strong, current in the tank. Preferably along its length. But some quiet areas for
the actual spawning. The mating dance is preformed in the current, the spawning in calm areas. The spawning dance is similiar to what has been discussed on the list the past few days. I have never seen a sign of territory claiming by the SAEs.
Lots of plants the eggs can be hidden in. I use lots of Java Moss in the calm areas of the tank. The SAEs are egg scatters. They will eat the eggs after the spawning is done, and any SAEs not involved in the spawning will dart in to devour eggs. Usually the all 5 SAEs are involved.
Green water. I know. Why would you want to add algea to a tank. I add about 10% green water to 90% fresh ( I should mention I have a well, so I don't have to pretreat my water). I think this simulates a natural food source to the parents.
I have come to suspect ( only a guess at this time ) that the water depth is responsible for the high mortality.
Posibbly the SAE fry need to get to the surface, Similiar to Corys, to gulp air. My reasoning is that with the last spawn I lowered th water to approx. 8 inches, and had the best survival rate yet. I couldn't lower it any more because of a spawn of Panaque Nig. and Apisto Cauc. in the tank.
I will post a more detailed letter of each spawning, especially the last because of the survival rate, when I,m
sure that my email is going somewhere besides oblivion. Thanks for your time and patience,
Doug Underwood

Ярик, а перевести!

В моем объеме 160л/155л наблюдалась таже картина, но только без нереста. Но я еще не сдался. На данный момент в аквариуме присутствуют и другие рыбы (сомы) - возможно еще и в этом причина. Большая замена воды - сильнейший из стимулов - наблюдается что-то похожее на приставания коридорасов, но намного стремительней - самец крутится-трясется возле самки; она подергивается, но более спокойно. За две подмены 50 и 75% и без того распухшее брюхо увеличилось еще на треть.
Иммитацию дождя получилось сделать только дождевалкой. Дополнительное течение- помпой. Планирую добавить очень мощную помпу, для создания сильного течения над планируемой иммитацией переката.
Икра сомовьих очень будет кстати, в данном случае....

Саша, сделаю, если кто-то раньше не поможет. Я теперь только в обед, да вечером с домашнего копма на форум заходить могу. У нас "горячий сезон", и кулуарные войны - немного не успеваю...

(я потом, после перевода, удалю это сообщение)

Ярик, круто!
Создать им условия для нереста оказывается можно.
Супер!
Значит не врал мне Л. о том, что у него есть сиацы, но только в личинке еще ;)

Ярослав
1) Где нашел?....(Зря я мало лажу по импортным сайтам...смысл-то есть...)

Обратите внимание вот на какой кусок

Цитата:

I have come to suspect ( only a guess at this time ) that the water depth is responsible for the high mortality.
Posibbly the SAE fry need to get to the surface, Similiar to Corys, to gulp air. My reasoning is that with the last spawn I lowered th water to approx. 8 inches, and had the best survival rate yet. I couldn't lower it any more because of a spawn of Panaque Nig. and Apisto Cauc. in the tank.

Т.е. "Я пришел к выводу (пока это только догадка) что уровень воды (глубина) влияет на выживаемость. Возможно SAE необходимо добраться до поверхности, аналогично с Corrys,....Пришел я к этой мысли потому что при последней метки понизил уровень воды приблизительно до 20 сантиметров и получил наилучший процент выживших (малько, очевидно). Еще ниже я уровень опустить не сомг из-за метки Panaque Nig и Apisto Cauc."

интересно

Как на них вышел/нашел - сбросил тебе на п.с.

Есть только такие же предположения - низкий уровень воды предполагает меньше усилий личинки для достижения поверхности и естественно хорошее насыщение этого объема кислородом.
Это быстрые рыбы, т.е. места существования имеют эту кислородную составляющую на высоком уровне.

Что было еще давно замечено - они, как и лабео, очень полюбляют посидеть в трубке, пещере, дырке коряги.... Т.е. чувство укрытия у них, видимо, развито сильно. Для тех, кто будет разводить их без уколов, наверное, это нужно будет учесть.